Indeed, but it isn't very useful as a tag. Breaking composites up enable one to be very specific about what subgroup of said composite they're looking for. If the tag is just "catgirl", you can't really specify that you want a catgirl without a cat tail unless tags for each already exist. And, if tags for each do already exist, there's no point in the composite tag, as it's redundant.


These are mistagged. They should be tagged fox_ears (and possibly fox_tail) instead.



The tag for this is "hitodama".

Keep in mind that you can find a lot of information on our tagging policies on Danbooru's tagging wiki. A very large number of our tag wiki pages are direct copies from Danbooru's, and pretty much every tag is influenced by their policies somehow. If our policies aren't explicitly stated, it's implied that they're exactly the same as Danbooru's policies, so Danbooru's wiki is a good resource for tagging.
It can be found here:
danbooru.donmai.us/wiki/show?title=help%3Ahome

But that makes me wonder why we have a "demon_girl" tag when we have tags like "horns", "pointy_ears" (and thus no "elf" anymore), "slit_pupils", "demon_wings", "demon_tail" and even "blue_skin" or "grey_skin" if necessary. By the "official" tagging policy here, wouldn't be "demon_girl" (and arguably "monster_girl" too, since that's more categorization than tagging) on the same level of redundancy as the composite tags "schoolgirl", "catgirl" and "elf"...?



Indeed, but it's still a question how to determine if the tag "kitsune" applies. I would go for the presence of the hitodama and/or nine tails and/or any signs of Inari, like rice and/or a white fox. These could be objective criteria, any more would be subjective. We need to tell mythological foxes in human form and plain foxpeople apart somehow. (Btw, I'm not a furry, but I adore kemonomimi.)



Thanks, I'll try to keep that in mind. Why I said hoshi no tama instead of this...?



I thought that Gelbooru's tagging and wiki system is more independent from Danbooru's. The last time I visited Danbooru in-depth was pretty much years ago when they restricted loli content, but as far as I know, they still have the catgirl tag, no? Or at least, there are some fundamental tagging differences between them and us.

...speaking of foxes, why do you mods hate the "animal_tail" tag? I know, I know, it's might be redundant, since it equals to "tail -demon_tail -some_other_misc_tail" (given that taily images are properly tagged), but it describes a visible thing such as "black_legwear", which is btw implies ONLY:
"black_pantyhose", "black_stockings", "black_thighhighs", "black_kneehighs", "black_socks" and probably "single_kneehigh", "single_thighhigh" (5+2 tags),
whereas the tag "animal_tail" implies AT LEAST the following:
"cat_tail", "dog_tail", "bunny_tail" (why not "rabbit_tail"?), "fox_tail", "wolf_tail", "tiger_tail", "lion_tail", "cow_tail", "sheep_tail", "mouse_tail" (10 tags, all have examples on Gelbooru).

So the issue is consistency versus redundancy. In my opinion, if there are generic, objective catch-all tags are in place for colors of legwear (without catering to any fetish, as it seems) which could be searched quite comprehensibly with as few as 5 tags compared to 10+, then there is no problem with a generic, objective catch-all tag for all tails that are animal in nature. (Note that even when we have angel_wings, demon_wings and mechanical_wings, we have wings too, while, technically they would be searchable with a 3-tag combination.)

Some may argue that generally "tail" means "animal_tail", but that's not always true. Another argument could be that nobody wants to search for stuff based on animal tails without respect to animal ears, since usually the tails are missing, not the ears, thus ears matter (and one could just sift through them to look for tails or their absence), but this isn't always true either. If the "animal_tail" tag is bullshit, then what could one search for if one wants to make absolutely sure to find animal tailed characters without writing in all the applicable animal_species_tail tags and without relying on the more general and often not tagged (I know, I should tag that already!) "tail" tag with tag negation to account for the demonic stuff cropping up? So, improving consistency or reducing redundancy is the more important key for Gelbooru?

Sry for being a provocateur against teh system now. :3

Perhaps, but this is an inconsistency from Danbooru's side. As I've said, our tagging policy is very linked with theirs. If they adopt a large-scale tag like this, we're more or less forced to comply, as 70% of all posts on the site come in from Danbooru as opposed to our own users.

As for why Danbooru did it, it's probably because of technical problems. While catgirl is easy to alias to cat_ears and let the remaining missing tags filter in later, and most posts that would end up tagging something "schoolgirl" would be doing it because of a present school_uniform instead of other features, that's also a reasonable alias; however, there is no such similar alias for demon_girl. This means that breaking the composite tag would take a lot of manual work in one way or another. And, of course, if this is a problem for Danbooru, it's a worse problem for us, since our alias system can be taken as a last resort for tags that are way too frequently misused to correct with mass tagging, and because we have a much smaller number of people actively participating in tagging.



Yes, this is the correct way to use the tag.



"star ball" sounds odd indeed.



Nope, not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. We are very dependent on their tagging policies, since as I said, 70% of our posts come in from Danbooru already tagged with whatever tags they end up with over there. Danbooru has a decent number of users who tag images pretty well and fairly quickly, so they usually end up coming in with more tags per image than a lot of our uploads do. This pretty much forces us into using those tags as well.

As for fundamental tagging differences, there aren't really. Maybe near the beginning, before it became apparent exactly how dependent we are on Danbooru's tagging policy, but ultimately it's a lot easier to just go with what Danbooru does, since it affects us so much. There were some aftereffects of this early stage that hung around until about a year ago, but those only managed to stay because we couldn't really do anything about them. The number of tag changes that would be required to make a dent was on the order of ten, maybe hundreds of thousands, and back then there was no way to tag things other than manually. This more or less forced us into using old policies that we couldn't change. The worst part was that we were also, at the same time, forced to use Danbooru's policies, which meant that there were a lot of redundant tags that we just couldn't do anything about.

But now we have the mass tagger. This enables us to clear tags with 10k+ posts in the span of a couple hours. If you look at many of the mods' profiles, you'll see really big numbers for their tag edit counts. For most of us, the bulk of that came within the first couple of weeks after the tagger was introduced, fixing up things that we knew needed fixing but weren't able to before.



The difference here is functionality. Back before legwear color tags, there was a very large number of legwear color + legwear type composite tags. At the same time, there was the legwear type tags all on their own. This means that the legwear color + legwear type composite tags were not only composite tags, but also directly redundant. Another side-effect was that there were a lot of them. There are a total of 12 color tags (and a whole bunch more patterns and styles), and four base styles of legwear, which led to a grand total of 48 legwear color + legwear style tags. So, the legwear color + legwear type tags were all merged into just legwear color, and legwear type was left separately tagged like it had already been. This means there are currently a total of only 12 color tags + 4 style tags, for a total of only 16 tags, with the exact same functionality as was present before, plus extra added functionality in being able to search across the legwear color tags all at once, which you couldn't before.

In short, the color legwear tags were made to solve a pretty big tagging problem that already existed.

However, the animal_tag you're proposing doesn't solve any tagging problems. It doesn't condense a bunch of tags into a much smaller number, it doesn't break existing composite tags down into smaller pieces; all it does is give you a shortcut to finding things quickly. That isn't enough of a reason to create a redundant tag. I'll remind you that redundant tags in general are against tagging policy.



Your scale is a bit off, as explained before. Instead of 10+ tags being condensed into 5, there were 48 tags. This still reduces into 16 tags, and only going by color. As I said, there were many patterns (stripes, dots, etc) and other style features not part of the main style (frills, lace, torn, etc) that were also condensed. that was a gigantic clusterfuck of hundreds of tags when there only needed to be a handful. Merging all those tags created a very significant improvement in actual tagging, not just usability. Your proposed change will slightly improve usability, by creating a shortcut to something that could already be found but with a longer search string, but it can only cause problems in tagging.

As for wings, I can see where you're going, but that's wrong too. Base tags like "tail", "ears", and "wings" are required before any of those other subtypes even come to the table.

It also seems you're misunderstanding the search. Searching for all three of those types of wings should only return images of multiple characters or of characters with multiple sets of wings, since searches are subtractive. There is no tag combination using the other existing wing tags to just get "wing", as there is no functioning or operator in searches. There is an existing tag combination for animal tails, though, in the tail -all_tail_types_that_are_not_animal.


This isn't what we're saying at all, and how often people would use a tag is a very small factor in deciding whether to implement it.


Once again, you seem to be misunderstanding the tagging system, as you wouldn't be writing in all of the animal tails, as that would only return images of multiple characters or of characters with many, many tails. Your search should be for tail -demon_tail -dragon_tail -ghost_tail -pikachu_tail, which isn't even that big of a search string.

As for the negated "tail" string being undertagged, as I've said before, that has absolutely no bearing on our tagging policy. If you don't like that those tags are undertagged, don't try to propose additional tags; this will just worsen the problem as the tag you're proposing will also be undertagged, and probably even worse so. The correct thing to do is to start going through and tagging them properly.

However, just to throw you a bone, I'm going to ensure that all of the posts tagged with any specific type of tail are also tagged with the base tail tag. That should help, no?

Maybe because not all images of demon girls have those traits.

It's an umbrella term.

Every cat girl has cat ears, if they didn't, they wouldn't be a cat girl to begin with, so an umbrella term isn't needed when ONE tag covers the entire thing



No, they wouldn't. Monster girl is another umbrella term.

For example, what tag would possibly work HERE post #1555529 ? Without the tag, the image gets lost, because you couldn't possibly tag that with anything.

The images under "schoolgirl" or "catgirl" are easily found under the cat ears and school uniform tags, no hypernym is needed.



Or you could just tag fox_ears and multiple tails.

Danbooru doesn't even have a whole page for the tag, it's all but abandoned, since they don't even tag the well known example in their wiki with it.

I don't know why we're still using it.



No. They actually got rid of it EARLIER than we did.

You really should check these things before talking about them.



Not really, no.



Or, you know, tail and animal_ears. Pretty simple.



So? Without the tag, you can't find the color legwear you're looking for. That's why it's here. Without animal tail, you can still, you know, find animal tails.



Remember that thing about umbrella terms? Yeah, that applies here. Tail is an umbrella term, if you're looking for a specific type of tail, you'll just type in the tail you're looking for.

Nothing is lost by us not using the incredibly redundant animal tail tag.



I'm actually curious as to how we would find black legwear without the black legwear tag. Keep in mind, that black thighhighs isn't even a valid tag.

So, I wanna see how you think that would be possible without the umbrella term.



I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge of that, huh?



>If

This guy!



Tail -demon_tail or tail and animal_ears. Not that hard.

Thanks Jerl, for shining some light on the tagging stuff. Really is a clusterfuck. Still, for animal tails, one needs to negate other unknown types of tails (ghost_tail, wtf). Yeah, making tail appear on every type of tail post would help. Not just me, but anyone, it's not really personal, I find stuff by ears. But still. And yeah, I know there is no logical OR in searches, only AND, but OR could be done by simply performing multiple searches, let's call it a "manual OR operator", but could be even XOR with some careful negating. Even if it's a hassle.

As for the ever edgier responses by Baroness:
I meant why we have both thighhighs, black_thighhighs, and black legwear? Or everyone should try killing the black_thighhighs tag because of redundancy?

But after all this explanation, I have a very simple question.
Apart from Gelbooru sucking most of it's content from Danbooru, which imports the tags and the whole clusterfuck of any and all tagging policy there... what is the main reason for trying to minimize tag redundancy to as low as possible, and seemingly making it the number one deciding point in accepting a proposed new tag?

And yeah, I'm not stupid, I know that the more tags we have, the more mistagging could happen and that would mean more things to fix, especially for site staff, since this is part of their duty here. Now is there any other reason against redundancy? Confusion? Technical limitations? Hey, Wikipedia is not paper, after all. (Deletionists vs inclusionists, anyone?) The final point all the mods make is that xyz tag "is redundant" and the implied content could be found by n more tags. (And using 2, 3, 4 or more tags, maybe with several searches, instead of one search with 1 tag IS a hassle for some users, especially if they don't know what tag would be applicable to find what they look for.) I'm just curious about the philosophy behind that ultimate point.

Maybe you guys should compile a tag FAQ or policy doc explaining how you decide upon new tags. Explanations about what is a "good" tag here?

Hey, still, I would like to write some wiki entries, writing the one for collar was fun.

>Edgy

Ah, the buzzword of 2013.



Black thighhighs HAS been killed because it was redundant, should have checked that too.

I'm still not seeing your point.



It's not really a clusterfuck. It's rather simple, but okay.



Why create a new tag if existing tags cover it completely?

gelbooru.com/index.php?page=wiki&s=view&id=6553 This was a new tag, Dan doesn't use it, but we do.

It got the okay because it isn't covered under any other tags, it's actually useful.



Why does there need to be more than one reason?

The reason you've been given is enough.



They could ask. It's happened before and usually we can point them in the right direction. That's what the threads are for.



If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll tag everything under the sun with pleasure face.

Sowwy, couldn't find a better word in english to describe your reactions without being an offending ass. Probably because english isn't my first language.

Oh, to put it in another way, from the mods whom I got replies from in this forum ever, Jerl seems to be the most friendliest, but you (and tbh ILM) aren't seem to be that easygoing on arguments and stuff. And, onto another topic now;



Oh, that was an appropriate response to someone dumb enough not to check the wiki every second day. I asked what I asked because I was happily tagging pictures with the black_thighhighs tag two(2) weeks ago, and didn't realized that it was nuked very recently:



I got the idea you meant "isn't even a valid tag" as being redundant, but still in use, since you didn't put "now" at the end of that sentence. Of course I only can keep in mind what I already learnt, thus I asked about if black_thighhighs should be untagged by now by every and all people here. (An idealistic idea.)

Since it was nuked, my point doesn't apply now.



I called it a clusterfuck because
1) we must adhere to it to keep a sane mind,
2) it is external and thus out of OUR control (without lobbying in THEIR community, but nobody would do such a thing I guess),
3) it has many-many - non-redundant - tags making up a detailed tagging system.

I would be interested in what tagging policy would Gelbooru have in the case it wouldn't suck 75% of it's content (along with the finely thought-out tags) from Danbooru. No, don't say it would have been a chaos.



I don't know, maybe to be 5-10% more user-friendly to the vast and often-not-as-savvy userbase whom the mods share their interest with? Namely enjoying whatever animu pictures for whatever the reason.


That's great. But you imply that something isn't or can't be useful if it's redundant? There's a hugeass amount of useful redundancy in RL. Although they aren't tags, I admit.



No, one reason is enough, I just wanted to know if there are any more. A simple "more redundant tags would mean more workload for us mods, so we don't want to waste our free time because of this" would have been a sufficient answer here.



That's cute, but speaking of the threads, in the past I saw mods bashing (in a style reminding me of 4chan) people for commenting ("upping") old threads here, now even if their comment was in a pointless topic or even if their question was noobish, which could be answered with 5 mins of searching, that isn't really the most welcoming attitude. Well, given the point that clueless people should ask in the forum.



Nah, it's not like it's an all-or-nothing situation having _some_ redundant tags. Direct redundancy, like synonyms, are kind of bad and _less_ useful (but still would be aliasable in boorus) than other more complex ways of redundancy. Like catgirl. Yeah, it's a shortcut. We use shortcuts in Windows too for a reason. So being redundant doesn't mean being useless. Some redundant tags could been really useful for the average people here, but I'm not in the charge of tagging policy, so yeah, lucky you.

Happy New Year!

Abrasive. I was being abrasive.

Also, nothing you can say would possibly offend me, so don't worry about that.



Jerl likes writing books, that doesn't equal friendly, far from it.

ILM doesn't like idiots, he simply has no tolerance for it, but he's hardly rude.

I can't stand people who don't fact check before talking about things, but I'd like to say I'm one of the nicer people here aside from that. People PM me out of nowhere to get info on things and I always make sure they find what they're looking for. Hell, I even made three different pools for people who were using redundant and or pointless tags just so they could still find what they were looking for.

I even took time out of my day to create a Pixiv account for Twilight Jester and I had no business doing that shit

Just because people don't take the time to hold your hand, doesn't mean they're rude. Sometimes you've got to take the first step by yourself.



The black thighhighs tag has been gone for about half a year now, if anyone is still using it, they're doing it wrong. This didn't just happen, it's not our fault people keep using it without noticing that there isn't anything under the tag when they place it on their images.



Not much of an issue for most people.



We actually have a few times.

If this is still about catgirl, that's never going to happen. In fact, they'll be RUDER than anyone has been to you over here.

They're good for that.

Considering that their userbase is slightly smarter (booksmarts, not so much elsewhere), I don't blame them.



This is only an issue for very few people. Most people adapt and move on.



First of all, we wouldn't survive, so that's just silly.

Second, we KNOW what happens to sites that just let their taggers place whatever on everything, it's called Rule 34 and Xbooru. Both of those things are terrible. Even without the Danbot, we'd probably end up following their lead.



If we didn't follow some sort of policy, it would.

But even without the Danbot, I think we'd come up with a policy similar to theirs.



Oh, you did the math?

I mean, you wouldn't just pull numbers out of nowhere, right?



So, you've admitted this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but still brought it up?

Huh?

What does meatspace have to do with Gelbooru?



What is it with people always bringing up the workload?

That's not what this is about.

It makes no sense to have a tag that is completely covered by another tag.

That's all.



It is not our job to be welcoming. This is not a hugbox.

Being nice is great, but given that most of those people asked incredibly stupid questions that had been asked a thousand times before, it's hard to smile and be polite.

Case and point, when the servers went down, there was a notice telling people what happened AND a stickied thread in all caps telling people to read it if they were wondering what was going down. Despite all of this, there were TWELVE topics about that same issue, which simply boiled down to people not reading or fact checking. That's not even counting everyone who showed up in the IRC or the comments about it.

I've also noticed that you never post examples. I like examples, they're comfy and easy to wear.



It's not a shortcut. It's a pointless tag.

I still don't get why you keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with our tagging policies.



It does as far as tagging is concerned. I don't know why you're arguing otherwise.

It's not going to change, so it seems like you're wasting your time.



>Catgirl is more useful than just typing in cat_ears

>Schoolgirl is more useful than just typing in school_uniform

>Animal_tail is more useful than just typing in tail

>All of the latter tags would already been on the images even if we kept the redundant ones

Huh?



post #1061108

At least Jerl doesn't seem as irritated by making explanatory walls of text that might look like emphatic.
ILM must have a though time, since the world (and imageboards and boorus) is filled with idiots.
You are probably a very good Wikipedia editor. Or you would be.



Now that's a blunder. I tagged it several times in the past few weeks. But I tagged black_legwear tags too, yay.



Nope, I understood it is against the philosophy here, and I never wanted to reintroduce it in the first place. I'm simply saying it's a worthwhile tag on sites where they use it. IMHO.
And no, they can't be ruder, someone here called me a Teletubby once.


Not sure if taunting or comically missing the point. But you see, that's why I wrote you would be an awesome Wikipedia editor. Reading that felt like seeing the "original research" and "citation needed" templates on WP, which is amusing, since we are on a booru. I could have wrote "few", the general meaning I went for is that imho redundant tags mean a slight usability boost, i.e. a more user-friendly site.



As you might know, I referred to the general concept of redundant things being useful. This is universal, since, uh, cyber is technically part of the meat world. Okay, enough of the philosophy bullshit.



Sorry, I thought that you agree with my point saying they would make you mods more job by mistagging. So in reality, this is purely a theoretical, logical issue. Redundancy is bad... because it is redundant. It seems like when I give value to be able to find things faster and in a bit more intuitive ways (example: foxgirl) by using redundant tags (which is definitely a positive effect of redundancy), the overall mod consent is that having more tags than absolutely needed to reach any and every post is an inherently bad thing without necessarily having negative effects. (Please note that I'm not arguing about the liberal use of ANY tags, but about the use of a FEW redundant tags which could be tought as intuitive for a noob, for example someone who visits Gelbooru for the first time and doesn't think of the possibility of Gelbooru having an actual fox_ears tag to search for fox girls, which he/she would call and refer to as simply "foxgirls", not as "fox_ears -1boy -multiple_boys".)
But yeah. Understood.



Diary of a Mod Kid. I guess I wouldn't be a mod if I get tired and pissed by hordes of genuinely well-intentioned idiots. Ehm, the typical "mods vs users" topic, so let's skip a beat. And yes, I saw the extra threads locked down, they were really lazy to look around. Younglings, probably.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwdlqquJDK4 The other choice would be too funny here. Enjoy this example of yours. By the way, I tried making excu... examples in this comment, and it's not even just "catgirl", yay.



Catgirl, foxgirl, schoolgirl, elf etc. aren't shortcuts per se, but animal_tail is a - lame - shortcut. In theory it shortcuts to several other specific tail tags. Not that I force it, you wanted examples, you got examples. As lame as it might be, it's a valid example of a tag which functions as a shortcut/shorthand when finding arbitrary stuff connected by the fact that they all tagged with some kind of animal tail tag. Sorry, don't got a better example yet which might satisfy you. And really, catgirl, foxgirl etc. are imho more intuitive at first and for noobs, than cat_ears, fox_ears etc.

You say it is pointless because it is an alternative way to find stuff. I don't (wouldn't) find it pointless.



The Windows shortcuts (really, just redundant links to the files themselves for the sake of convenience and speed) were just a quick example to illustrate my point of redundant things being useful, must be why we use lot of redundancy knowingly literally everywhere. Not related to the tagging policy, but related to the view you hold about redundancy as a concept here on Gelbooru.



Probably, but I would love what the others think of this. Again, I would like to emphasize the fact that I'm more concerned about the general idea of hating redundancy than about individual, specific tags you would like to see examples of by me. I'm sure you too see that this is about concepts and general ideas, not catgirl tags.



And pweez stop that greentexting, I hate when I get the feeling of /b/ when I'm actually not in /b/. Let's pretend we are all more intelligent than /b/tards, kay?

* For an average person, imho "catgirl" is more intuitive to guess than "cat_ears". Being able to use intuitive and commonplace words as tags for a widely known and popular theme (catgirls) is imho a user-friendly and positive effect with probably minimal negative effects (i.e. more mistagging). This positive effect isn't affected by the presence or absence of one or more, probably less intuitive tags, which could be used to find the posts.

* For an average person, imho "schoolgirl" is more intuitive to guess than "school_uniform". Being able to use intuitive and commonplace words as tags for a widely known and popular theme (schoolgirls) is imho a user-friendly and positive effect with probably minimal negative effects (i.e. more mistagging). This positive effect isn't affected by the presence or absence of one or more, probably less intuitive tags, which could be used to find the posts.

* For an average person, imho "animal_tail" is a more intuitive way to search for the multitudes of posts containing characters with a fairly high number of various types of animal tails, without knowing about tag negation, without knowing about what non-animal tail tags (ex.: demon_tail, pikachu_tail etc.) should be negated to find only relevant posts, and without relying on the animal_ears tag when one isn't interested in the presence or absence of animal ears on characters in the posts. (Not all animal tailed characters have animal ears, or they aren't necessarily visible - sorry, no example here now, this isn't Wikipedia). This is imho a user-friendly and positive effect. This positive effect isn't affected by the presence or absence of one or more, probably less intuitive tags, which could be used to find the posts.

Sorry for being myself, but my opinion simply seems like more logical than simply avoiding all redundancy in tagging on the grounds of it being itself (redundant) and "useless" (for who?). I tried to be as precise in wording as I could with this last part to get through my ideas behind all these BS walls of text that I produced.

Again, I don't really care personally if redundancy would not be ever accepted in the tagging policy, I'm arguing for the sake of what I think as average visitors. And it's also fun to put logic and philosophy into this shit. It's actually fun to argue with you, Baroness. Hope you don't mind that I'm not your usual, run-of-the-mill retarded noob with no cohesive output and a grammar level of a cat...girl.

I usually find that people that use big titted girls as their avatar or anything with nudity tend to never have any idea what they're talking about.

E: wait



WHAT?