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Anonymous commented at 2017-04-16 00:03:39 » #2119617
This episode was refreshing, and also a bit disturbing. If you've seen it, you know how the battle ended up. I'll say that I'm certain Goku was holding back. It was stated, and it was clear. Even so, there are... concerns. Here are mine, and please understand that I actually liked the fight:
*17 battles Piccolo to a near equal brawl, where he likely would have won due to an endless power supply, which likely was key in the training to follow. More on that later.
*He is absorbed by Cell, after being stomped. He is revived and becomes a father, a husband, and a sound protector of wildlife. He also seemingly battled some form of evil while the others were away tackling other feats - apparently while they were focused on Space... or space bouts or... something. When is not specified, and against whom is also left out.
*17 can battle a SSJ Goku (likely holding back to some degree or another. Again, unspecified how much), and do so with little effort as he is also holding back and has almost zero facial effort to display exhaustion or difficulty.
*We're aware that the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 is somewhat respectable. Even inspiring. Against Cell it was a huge leap. With Goku vs Vegeta, it was considerable in that a SSJ2 Vegeta could stand to at least blow up Fat Buu to bits, and eventually even stand up against Kid Buu... though not well or for long. SSJ3, of course, is even larger, handling Fat Buu greatly and likely able to kill Kid Buu - if we can believe Goku's boast... which is arguable but believable, given the fight being somewhat equal and a SSJ Spirit Bomb getting the job done in the end.
*SSJ 1-3 are still potent forms in Super, but utterly ignored and buried - likely because of the cost to stamina. Against Beerus, at at least got his attention vaguely at 3. It was, also, rather useless, but a SSJ2 Vegeta did have a decent showing for about a second's time, and SSJ Goku did in fact do well against Beerus in the movie when he was unaware God Ki had gone out. While it was likely more a matter of will in this, SSJ 1-3 are still, for obvious reasons, useful in gauging the awe of SSJG and SSJB.
*Transformations do more than change power or allow better control. They increase durability. Even when holding back, or just plain standing still, managing to even budge a SSJ2 is more difficult than a SSJ. And for each step above, this is always the case. Even basic powerups can cause this. Android 17 battles SSJ Goku to a fair contest, even if they are restraining themselves. I would like to know just what sort of training 17 did to accomplish this. It would be worth seeing, I should hope. I mean, push ups, sit-ups, and plenty of juice, with endless energy... isn't really a good enough answer. Did he spar or battle someone or multiple someones? If so, who? When? Why? Just poachers... with guns and bombs, or... what? That's kinda a big leap, even for an Android, and worth explaining. But... I can believe it with a stretch and just not caring about if it makes a lot of sense. Because it looked nice.
*Goku skips - as he has quite often lately - SSJ2 and 3, and even SSJG. No big. I get it. Wasteful energy, sure. On a real opponent. But if he's going to hold back, and gauge, those steps, a moment at a time, would be nice for us to find a decent waypoint. But no, it's straight to Blue. Okay. But that's not a big leap, it's huge. Even if Goku was giving it the concern I would a flea, there's the matter of powerups naturally always affecting basic durability, shown countless times throughout the series. It's sort of a staple. Again, while 17 training day in and day out is fine, and him being stronger is sensible, and I like having characters be important again, there's little relevance to how or why 17 is strong enough to handle SSJB, even at 1% of it's power in Goku. What was shown doesn't do that boost justice.
*With Freeza's months of training, he was a match for SSJB. But he had a purpose, a target, and while it is hard to swallow, I accept it - like I can accept that what's done is done with 17. When Trunks can use a Spirit Bomb style attack in his sword, with no training of any kind in it or God Ki... I shouldn't and won't be upset because I'm not watching for Dragon Ball to suddenly tie up plot holes or make perfect sense. Power Levels never really have, and I wager Toriyama fucking hates them at this point himself. But that's a guess.
*I'm concerned not because 17 shouldn't be able to hold is own at that level. I'm concerned because while every little detail isn't required for me to enjoy DB, Super or otherwise, there seems to be a complete lack of explanation or warrant to these actions beyond us fans dealing with it plainly or coming up with excuses based on what information we are given and trying to make due. The cause for these steps doesn't seem to be for plot or lack thereof, but perhaps budget, misdirection, or some other non-story based reason. And that's bothersome because I enjoy Dragon Ball and remain a fan.
*17 can be God tier or not, Goku can be holding back or not. It's not right to throw that into the mix, with everything that's happened and been going on and is to come, with no justifiable warning. If these aliens that are coming have something to do with it, I sure hope it gives us some insight to balance things out. And in the future, I hope they don't just leave us thinking that SSJB is at all so comparable to SSJ even in restraints... That would suck.
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This episode was refreshing, and also a bit disturbing. If you've seen it, you know how the battle ended up. I'll say that I'm certain Goku was holding back. It was stated, and it was clear. Even so, there are... concerns. Here are mine, and please understand that I actually liked the fight:
*17 battles Piccolo to a near equal brawl, where he likely would have won due to an endless power supply, which likely was key in the training to follow. More on that later.
*He is absorbed by Cell, after being stomped. He is revived and becomes a father, a husband, and a sound protector of wildlife. He also seemingly battled some form of evil while the others were away tackling other feats - apparently while they were focused on Space... or space bouts or... something. When is not specified, and against whom is also left out.
*17 can battle a SSJ Goku (likely holding back to some degree or another. Again, unspecified how much), and do so with little effort as he is also holding back and has almost zero facial effort to display exhaustion or difficulty.
*We're aware that the difference between SSJ and SSJ2 is somewhat respectable. Even inspiring. Against Cell it was a huge leap. With Goku vs Vegeta, it was considerable in that a SSJ2 Vegeta could stand to at least blow up Fat Buu to bits, and eventually even stand up against Kid Buu... though not well or for long. SSJ3, of course, is even larger, handling Fat Buu greatly and likely able to kill Kid Buu - if we can believe Goku's boast... which is arguable but believable, given the fight being somewhat equal and a SSJ Spirit Bomb getting the job done in the end.
*SSJ 1-3 are still potent forms in Super, but utterly ignored and buried - likely because of the cost to stamina. Against Beerus, at at least got his attention vaguely at 3. It was, also, rather useless, but a SSJ2 Vegeta did have a decent showing for about a second's time, and SSJ Goku did in fact do well against Beerus in the movie when he was unaware God Ki had gone out. While it was likely more a matter of will in this, SSJ 1-3 are still, for obvious reasons, useful in gauging the awe of SSJG and SSJB.
*Transformations do more than change power or allow better control. They increase durability. Even when holding back, or just plain standing still, managing to even budge a SSJ2 is more difficult than a SSJ. And for each step above, this is always the case. Even basic powerups can cause this. Android 17 battles SSJ Goku to a fair contest, even if they are restraining themselves. I would like to know just what sort of training 17 did to accomplish this. It would be worth seeing, I should hope. I mean, push ups, sit-ups, and plenty of juice, with endless energy... isn't really a good enough answer. Did he spar or battle someone or multiple someones? If so, who? When? Why? Just poachers... with guns and bombs, or... what? That's kinda a big leap, even for an Android, and worth explaining. But... I can believe it with a stretch and just not caring about if it makes a lot of sense. Because it looked nice.
*Goku skips - as he has quite often lately - SSJ2 and 3, and even SSJG. No big. I get it. Wasteful energy, sure. On a real opponent. But if he's going to hold back, and gauge, those steps, a moment at a time, would be nice for us to find a decent waypoint. But no, it's straight to Blue. Okay. But that's not a big leap, it's huge. Even if Goku was giving it the concern I would a flea, there's the matter of powerups naturally always affecting basic durability, shown countless times throughout the series. It's sort of a staple. Again, while 17 training day in and day out is fine, and him being stronger is sensible, and I like having characters be important again, there's little relevance to how or why 17 is strong enough to handle SSJB, even at 1% of it's power in Goku. What was shown doesn't do that boost justice.
*With Freeza's months of training, he was a match for SSJB. But he had a purpose, a target, and while it is hard to swallow, I accept it - like I can accept that what's done is done with 17. When Trunks can use a Spirit Bomb style attack in his sword, with no training of any kind in it or God Ki... I shouldn't and won't be upset because I'm not watching for Dragon Ball to suddenly tie up plot holes or make perfect sense. Power Levels never really have, and I wager Toriyama fucking hates them at this point himself. But that's a guess.
*I'm concerned not because 17 shouldn't be able to hold is own at that level. I'm concerned because while every little detail isn't required for me to enjoy DB, Super or otherwise, there seems to be a complete lack of explanation or warrant to these actions beyond us fans dealing with it plainly or coming up with excuses based on what information we are given and trying to make due. The cause for these steps doesn't seem to be for plot or lack thereof, but perhaps budget, misdirection, or some other non-story based reason. And that's bothersome because I enjoy Dragon Ball and remain a fan.
*17 can be God tier or not, Goku can be holding back or not. It's not right to throw that into the mix, with everything that's happened and been going on and is to come, with no justifiable warning. If these aliens that are coming have something to do with it, I sure hope it gives us some insight to balance things out. And in the future, I hope they don't just leave us thinking that SSJB is at all so comparable to SSJ even in restraints... That would suck.
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